This week, Mark (www.markwoodbridge.wordpress.com) and I somehow found ourselves debating the merits of science, memes, evolution, zeitgeist and what not. The debate started on Monday evening when I believe Mark, while at work and out of the blue, sent me an interesting text message (which I later found out he mass texted to half his contact book) about memes. At the time I was with my crew writing a script for our next documentary (a cultural history of goon) and in order to get our creative juices flowing we decided to get drunk on goon. I have transcribed the debate (which occured both through text messaging and facebook) for posterity. I think it’s interesting and I my views have certainly evolved after having it. So enjoy:
Mark: I’ve been thinking of why and how we evolved into beings which embrace altruism and institutions and such superfluities (ie religion) and I think it’s being looked at from the wrong perspective. To go with the idea that society is in itself an organism (albeit a relatively abstract one), perhaps the notiont that it was the societies en mass proponderances that thrived, rather than the individuals. I think that fits in quite neatly with any hypotheses that Dawkins has postulated. Neitzche had said we no longer need God as a society. Showing yet again he was of a higher consciousness than his contermporaries as we see the slow but inexorable turn away from that meme. As societies, large and small show they can thrive without a god. Also I really need to take a shit.
To which I responded:
Paul: Look what I am about to say needs to be prefaced by the fact that I’m drunk on goon but I wrote half a blog entry on this before abandoning it on the basis of the fact that I think it’s futile. I think all theories are merely a product of their socio-cultural context. For example, the notion that humans have evolved into being which have embraced altruism does not sit well with me. Neitzche’s notion of a society post God is a gain a reading of society on the basis of a contemporaneous socio-cultural milieu. Think about it, mass alturism only really came about post industrial revolution whereby a surfuit of human produce could enable acts of alturism (for example, the poor laws). Remove such surpluses and I think humans would regress and abandon notions of alturism in the interest in their and their family’s survival. This isn’t evolution, this is a product of socio-cultural zeitgeist.
Mark: We should have this discussion another time. When you’re not drunk and not over text. I’d like to pick apart that whole message
. My message was just a seed for discussion and I’m glad you replied.
Me then becoming highly provocative:
Paul: Oh try me! All science is socially constructed. Just like the theory of evolution – it operates within a zeitgeist. In time it will be falsified as most ertstwhile scientific theories have been from Newton to Einstein. We just need to wait and see. Think transhistorical.
Mark: I know what you’re talking about. My brain is operating a million miles an hour right now and I have to make a damn pizza. Cure the pursuit of absolute truth. We should just abandon it and put it out of our minds. I think you’ve been promoted to Meta-Cynic
.
Paul: That’s exactly right! Hence my abandonment of my blog entry. Yes, I’m now firmly postmodern. It’s not that humans have “evolved” into a point where there is no need for a God, there is just no need for a God in this current epoch. When does human belief in God surface? In times when humans lack control. However, in this modern world we have an illusion that we have control of our lives by virtue of our liberalist political ideology [and the idea that science will one day solve everything]. Remove that illusion of control and society and our society will quickly regress into an epoch in which God has supreme relevance and thus is restored as the ultimate.
Mark: By taking that stance you are completely obviating the discussion and that’s not fun. If we abandon everything we wouldn’t engage in anything. Let’s start with alturism. Alturism did already exist, but not on a mass scale because it COULD NOT exist on a mass scale. Define family because certainly it existed within social groupds in the past and still to this day, large and small. Not just in humans…you know, I think you agree with me, and Neitzche, but don’t realize it. You certainly don’t disagree. We’re both talking about memes and their usefulness to that current society. A society still evolving…besides that’s just your theory which you developed within the constraints of a pardigmal bias. It’s be shown to be incorrect.
Paul: Oh I’m just saying what I think probably independet of what ur saying. I agree that alturism existied in small tribal groups but that was a product of that fact that the individuals best hope of survival rested with the pooling of resources not some moral god. And the best thing is that ur right, my theory is merely a product of the postmodern sociocultural zeitgeist, just like all theories…done, I won’t respond anymore this is too expensive.
Mark: Lame. I have so much to say. Maybe re-read my initial message when you’re sober and we’ll talk another time. I don’t entirely agree, but you’re safe from reproach because there’s no way for me to prove otherwise. Kind of like another saucy topic we’re often forced to debate…
Paul: Look I think I’m arguing against your friend Sonny not u. His ideas were crazy.
Mark: Yeah. I’ve continued to debate him in moderation. He’s altered hist argument drastically. But he’s also preparing a demonstrative for me. Intriguing. But listening to opposing points of view is the best way to refine one’s arugment. Plus I just find all this stuff to be exquisite. Helps me get through 13 hours of washing dishes and cooking for dead shits.
Now here’s where I sober up and the conversation resumes the next day:
Paul: The problem I have with applying Darwin to history is that as a necessary corollary it presupposes the notion of history as progress. Also I reject the idea that science can advance towards some sort of omniscience where by we can acquire absolute truth through rigorous application of the scientific mehtod. This just doesn’t sit well with me. Truth is, and always will be, historically derived. We, at this time ,are engaged in a discussion using ideas and theories which are the dominant episteme today, will no doubt be sublated tomorrow. We are playing a game in which the goal posts are constantly moving. How then can we ever know truth in we are constantly in flux? We can’t and as such the truth is what I believe it to be. I guess I’m arguing a kind of sopilsism. What do you think? Give me some brain fodder, I’m meant to be doing work and this is all I can think about.
Mark: My battery is about to go dead, but really I think that you misconstrue what science is, being the observation of the universe. Theories are just that. Science doesn’t try to tell us everything, it just observes. Evolution is the absolute best obervation humanity has ever made, but of course it is not infallible. Even if no observations had been made that is absolute truth (or can be), it doesn’t mean that is is impossible. Using whay you said last night, you can’t say how observations will be made in the future. Also, the notiont that every theory will one day be proven false is logically unsound. I have a lot to say though, So I’ll text you tonight, feel free to reply.
Paul: Concerning gravity for example, there is not one completely irrefutable theory but a number of theories which compete for scientific hegemony. Likewise, if you ask a physicist and a chemist to decribe a molecule both of their explanations will differy because they see it through their own paradigmic lens. I understand what science is but I dispute that it is always value free and strictly based on observation. Scientific discourse is imbued with explaining, not just neutral, value free observation. Science is constructed in power structures by people who are drive by ego as much as the search for truth. I believe evolution to be the best possible explanation we have today, but as a theory there are questions as to whether it is truly falsifiable because it is impossible to recreate and observe the conditions of evolution. The grasp for truth is a false pormise. Pragmatically, I have no problem with people striving for it, philosophically I have my doubts. As far as I’m concerned, complete omniscience is god and this is what positivistic science promises. I think you have a romantic idea of what science is but this is divorced from how science is produced and consumed in scoiety and even presented by scientists.
The debate then moves away from text messages to facebook messages:
FROM MARK:
Anyways, onto your test messages from before:
I can’t subscribe to your views for a number of reasons.
Firstly: It is self-defeating. To say that all theories are predicated by the paradigm within which they are composed is itself a theory arising from your current paradigm. You’ve no way to say how theory will be composed, or observations made within future epochs.
Secondly, it creates a paradox and if amended to extirpate the paradox (ie, “all theories will one day be proven incorrect, except this one” or “all theories are subject to the weight of the context within which they are contained, exept this one”) is to admit that a truth is possible.
Thirdly, it is stating that theories which are assumed to be correct will definately be proven false. There is no way to prove this, nor any real reason to think this way. It is simply a matter of faith. Replace this scenaio: We haven’t yet found the meaning so we never will, God is the answer; with: We haven’t yet found the meaning so we never will, it is henceforth futile to keep looking.
We were once within a world which believed the world to be flat, someone with the scientific acumen announced that the world was round, and he was vindicated in the future with the truth, that by human’s perception of what is round in our 3 dimensions (not including time..) it is indeed round. And we have thus devloped science which can make this observation seem rudementary.
Unfortunately, we live within a short time-frame and are unable to be extant when posterity verifies (or indeed vitiates) theories, if it is capable of doing so.
In my opinion, it is simply an ultra-cynical view from someone who’s outlook on the universe has been cauterized by his own inability to fathom that which is unfathomable in such a scientifically nascent race. It’s a capitulation which, if one was inclined to read between the lines, one would infer that you’re struggling to come to terms with the lack of meaning to your own existance. Do you need validation, Paul?
“Truth” itself is an abstraction. The word itself is misleading and perhaps for sake of clarity ought be removed; one needs simply to focus on what “is”. Science is here to simply observe what “is”, not pontificate to us what the “truth is”. All human’s have is “context” with which to observe “what is”. Human’s may try to say “what is”, not science. Don’t confuse scientists with science.
As to your criticisms. Gravitation has not been proven “incorrect” (caveat: yet ;-]), it has simply been shown to be incompatable with quantum mechanics. Think of it like this:
We know how little things work, we know how medium things work, we know how big things work; we simply don’t yet know how big things and little things work with one another.
Of course, you *think* that even if a theory is forthcoming, it’ll be proven false with posterity.
As for evolution, there is one unequivocal way of proving it to be false:
To find contradictory fossil evidence where it does not belong.
To be honest, there isn’t much argument against your position. It’s simply another point of view. But as science continues to exist, and our use *of* it becomes increasingly more sophisticated, as humanity evolves into something far more complex than we are currently capable of fathoming, it’s strange that you would take a stance similar to the one you have.
Science will continue to pile on evidence, evermore, and just continue “working on it” to paraphrase Dawkins. With each year that humanity exists, it isn’t simply generating new theories, it’s perpetually gaining in knowledge, and raising it’s consciousness. We will keep observing.
Having said all this, I don’t actually believe we’re disputing anything, just interpretting the same information differently. Your point of view seems counter-intuitive to me, while I’m positive mine seems “wildly optimistic” to you.
PAUL’S REPLY:
Yes, my ideas are based on a paradigm, as are yours and everybody’s. No, I don’t have an idea how theories will be composed in future epochs or how observations will be made, but I keep my mind open to the fact that science is merely one way of knowing and that there is a POSSIBILITY that it could be sublated in the future as have previous forms of knowledge. I don’t think there is necessarily no value in thinking like this. Yes, these ideas are highly abstract and rely on a certain degree of historicism which is a HIGHLY controversial theory. At every stage in history, the modern man has viewed himself at the forefront of knowledge (regardless of how that knowledge is produced) but my interpretation of history does not support the idea that history is a narrative of progress. When you say that I have purported to allege “all theories are subject to the weight of the context within which they are contained, exept this one” is a complete misreading of what I am saying. I am saying that no theories transcend historical context especially this one! Therefore, at best, we can merely, and should, critique all theories within their cultural-historical context (and I will submit my own to such an examination below). Think about previous theories that have been offered in the name of science: electric-shock therapy, eugenics, social Darwinism – there is no way to say whether they were right or wrong, they have just sublated by a different episteme which tells us that they are “wrong.”
I think you are completely missing my point. My point is that “production of science” is inherently intertwined with scientists for you cannot have science without the scientist. Herein lies the root of my argument. I understand what science is which you have painstakingly tried to reiterate over and over – you don’t need to. I know what science “is”. My argument is such that whilst science as a means through which to observe the world might exist in some idealistic form which you base your argument on, I maintain that it is far more messy than that by virtue of the fact that there are indeed, scientists.
I can’t agree with your point “there is one unequivocal way of proving it to be false: To find contradictory fossil evidence where it does not belong.” The reason why is because evolution as a process is not totally observable. What we use to provide evidence for evolution is trace evidence in the form of fossils which have been examined and interpreted by a certain “scientist.” The problem is that we don’t have all the information. In fact, we might not EVER have all the information because let’s face it, the information might not exist in this world anymore – it might never have been fossilized and thus captured for our observation today. Therefore, this theory cannot really be proven because we can never really falsify (if you accept Popper’s thesis of falsification) or repeat it. Don’t get me wrong, I accept evolution as the best “guess” aka theory that we have for the origin of our species. But there is an element of faith in accepting it. That’s why I hold this post positivist opinions is because it concerns me people who accept these theories as absolute truth even though they are truly “guesses” albeit predicated on the best empirical evidence we have today. You mentioned in your text message the e-coli experiment. I would like to know the totality of that experiment because I find it very difficult to acceptable that scientists can “prove” evolution on the basis of an experiment considering evolution is a process that occurred on a scale which makes our lifetimes (let alone the 1, 2 or even 20 years of an experiment) look infinitesimal – evolutionists seem to wrap up macroevolution and microevolution into one. Anyway, I don’t want to get bogged down into an argument about evolution because I’m starting to sound like a creationist and I in consideration of the evidence I believe evolution to be the best explanation that we have today. But what I am fighting against, is accepting of theories as absolute truths. I think we are indeed, approaching this issue from two different angles. You are taking it from an optimistic angle, in which you see science in its purest form, and I respect that opinion and indeed if, I were arguing with someone like myself would take such a position. I, on the other hand, am playing Devil’s Advocate and am more interested in the way science is produced by scientists and more importantly the way it is “consumed” by society not in ideal forms of science. For example, the weakness of my argument is that it is based completely on a tautology [sic - should be paradox], there is no such thing as absolute truth, however that statement in itself cannot be true, and neither can that statement. Aghhhh! My ideas are informed by the socio-cultural context in which I, as a thinker [albeit poor and possibly nescient] exists. I see myself in a world in which people are accepting evolution and Dawkins as if it were Gospel. But they are good “guesses” and are incomplete and constantly, pardon the pun, evolving. You might have a different impression of how they are consumed by society. Yes, we are advancing forward and forward in our grand narrative of progress to a point where we will “know” – or so the current scientific discourse tells us. But I disagree with the way scientific discourse is presented as the truth. I know you completely disagree with this view of science and I know in idealistic form that is not at all what science is. But sometimes I look out into the current zeitgeist and see people accepting evolution and Dawkins with the same fanaticism as people in erstwhile years accepted divination as the sole source of all knowledge and I see REAL danger in that kind of world view just as I see REAL danger in accepting knowledge completely predicated on divination. I think it is so important to constantly be critical of the way, means, manner and methods in which it is produced. Therefore, I don’t see my position as totally counter-intuitive. I think you see science as a self-regulating body, but what damage can it do in the process of self-regulation? Don’t get me wrong, a cure for cancer is going to come through the scientific method but I don’t think a constant critique of the production and consumption of science in our society from those independent of the science producers is a completely pointless exercise!
Please see the Howard years; I think John Howard is one of my heroes. I utterly detest the religious moralism in many of his social ideas, but as a Prime Minister he was great. And I think Costello is a genius!
And yeah Mark, I’m kind of a big deal! So pay strict reverence to my existence and validate me!
MARK:
Points understood.
No real point in discussing further.
You need more linebreaks.
Enough said.
Slight tangent.
p.s. I hope we don’t have to go through the virtues of absolute truth every time I send a text with regards to anything that could be construed as “knowledge”.
;-]
PAUL’S REPLY:
It was the goon that made me do it.
There was some more argy-bargy after this, but it’s not really central to the debate, so I’ll end it there. A few times through that debate I was being overly provocative and have changed a number of my viewpoints that I have stated, but I think the “thrust” of my argument remains the same. So hopefully, that was as intellectually stimulating reading, as it was having.